"It's pathetic to watch all the diskmag editors come out of their dungeons and fight in the daylight.

Read my lips, diskmags is dead :)"

1) if diskmags are dead, why do you have read this one?

2) You love looking at dead things?

3) 200 posts about a dead thing?

4) I read your lips and see you made a mistake: "diskmags" is plural so you must use "are" and not "is".

5) See DP the teacher to learn more...

6) If hugi is dead, then you've met a living dead! And you have met JC: a resurrected guy!!!

7) Hugi is fantastic!!!

tmb^scx:

"as all the idiots of pouet gave a comment here, i have to do that too (solitary with the idiots inside us all)

adok is gay
hugi is dead"

1) So watch out your ass!!!
2) So how can you read it?

Okkie Hasselhoff:

"a thumb down just for that moronic "how to save the demoscene" thing."

Moronic? Well, what is moronic is not to give something to make myself less of a moron so. I think such kinds of answers or claims have no value at all. And I will not respond to them.

kb:

"And a thumb down for such a value judgement without any arguments.

Socialist realism or not, the fact remains that Emmanuel Poirier has NO FUCKING CLUE about what he's writing about.

You quoted it yourself: "and we need a good spirit, without competition, 'I'm the best, you are a lamer' is not a good spirit, it's the spirit of bad mannered-people"

As sad at is may seem: exactly THIS is what the scene was founded on and exactly THIS is what keeps people productive.

So I totally second dipswitch's points.
Except maybe his political excursions, but the general tendencies are correct."

No... clue of... of?

See "My scene life" and we will see what you think afterwards. And AFAIK I was to 4 middle sized parties and some small ones and competition spirit was acceptable. In fact there was almost no competition in my point of view: contributors to the parties released something and they did it not to win, they weren't fighting, they simply showed us what they had done and if it pleased sceners then it was OK, if not, then... The only guy I saw at saturne 3 who was furious about being not selected or losing a compo was Ra of Bomb. His picture inspired by Star Wars was not selected and he was threw a mars bar (bad stuff for teeth!!!) outside the party place. Not really a good reaction, but well, surely good for its nerves.

There were other bad reactions too: At the saturne 3, I remember there was Oxygene presenting a good demo, certainly the winning PC entry. Oxbab (a clever guy I think), was arriving just after finishing the demo from outside the party, in this way not suffering the stress of the party, "No last minute stress before deadline, no party disorder, no talk,...", to make it run perfectly at home... Well I remember there was a guy from Oxygene and if I remember well that this was Oxbab. He said: "You will see, I'll beat Gengis". He was so excited, he was all over the place, totally in another world, saying "I fuck Gengis". This was pitiful and of really bad manner.

Here you got to know some facts: Gengis was the spiritual master who had given almost everything to Oxbab when it came to mapping knowledge, so such little respect for his own master is simply an affront.

I also remember having talked with Ben of MeltingPot several monthes after that. He told me: "At the S3 party (Saturne 3), we met Oxbab with another meltingpot coder and he told us something like 'I'm so powerful: I know new functions about how to plot more dots without more CPU power'. But we already knew that: you know maths are an old science and encyclopedia / books contains a lot of stuff, like libraries and the internet." Well, at this party Oxbab was not fair, that's my point. Ra wasn't either. And at the GASP I was there too and I met once more time Niko who was the guy who had introduced me to the demoscene. There he was kicked by a girl: Clary. This girl was the girlfriend of Blue Silence, an amiga musician of NGC. Well I was trying to talk with Niko at a time and I think Made told me to go to play to sandpit or something else insulting and for what? Just for fun. This was also a lack of respect.

After that, I would have talked to Niko after he had been hit by Clary. She was the attraction of this party, which was a total failure for the organizers (organised at the same time as Assembly I think). Featuring the French Elite demosceners, this party was interesting and surely for me the the second most interesting of the 4 I visited.

Well Clary was the most hated person at the place: Blue Silence was deceived, see his reaction. I have taken part in the musicdisc revenge (bleu by ngc) by BlueSilence, Zaltor, Cyborg, and EDW (my first pseudo). And in the fast gfx compo, Niko (see Pulse website, Toxic Mag #11 for the story) did a picture to explain what she had done to him.

Well this is another example of what's happened to parties,... This was fun, from my point of view at least, this wasn't the same case for blue silence at least.

Other examples of bad practices?

Let's talk about the war between Kefrenz and Melon, and remember that nowadays Kefrens is dead: in Desert dream we see the pyramid's inhabitants killing the Melon, sadly nowadays in reality Kefrens is dead and Melon is Alive!!!

The same appears with Andromeda: the best and only Andromeda AGA demo of all times Nexus 7 contains the most beautiful fuck scrollers in the whole Amiga history. Andromeda for those who don't know them is a really great Amiga Demo crew. I see there really good 2D pictures and you will understand why I would like 2D pics to survive then.

In it there is a really beautiful scroller lasting about 30 seconds, saying "Fuck You Lord Helmet". Lord Helmet was a member of SpaceBalls with Major Asshole who had been the winner of The Party 2 years before with "State of The Art: a very controversed demo, featuring almost no code at all". Time proves that nowadays Andromeda is dead while SpaceBalls are still alive.

So Lord Helmet and his friend Major Asshole were perhaps well fucked as his pseudo suggests but they have survived. So these are examples which show that when a crew insults another one, it dies soon after: this shows that people without respect can't get a group to run for a long time and losing one's time in wars is not making demos.

About the fact that what makes scene continuously productive is competition and bad mannered people like KB has said: so KB, I like your tunes very much but tell me honestly: Is lizardking a fucking bastard musician? Is Uncle Tom a big asshole? And are you better than them I suppose? You know better than them how to make certain things? Music, perhaps?

Well insults, and lack of respect lead to war and to non productivity. Productivity is parallel work, work emulation, team spirit, friendship and self motivation, that's my point. I never seen a football team win anything by saying: "Zinedine Zidane is a fucking lamer" .

"When did I say anything like that?"

You've quoted several sentences, I wasn't able to fully understand what you really wanted to say, see the quote above and you will see it contains a flame (lamer).

"And since when is competition equal to flaming?"

For sure competition is different from flaming, but I think and have seen in the scene that competition isn't necessary and in fact is less present than in other fields. People release, create but don't really compete: there are not enough high prizes to win to do so. Hopefully the scene isn't based on money. That's a really good basis as when money is involved everything is fucked up, see Irak War for petrol and see how the world is running around: building older people to sell more health products or pharmaceutics, cars to sell gasoline as fuel oils and petrol used in tires, whereas they can work using water which is far less polluting than gazoline,... and what competition / productivity pushes people to do like doping in sports, feeding animals with animals flours,...

In fact in the demo scene, there is no competition and I have made a mistake by talking about it, in the scene there is most of the time sceners emulation, like Dierk has told me "if you want to control sceners, you have to release demos and show them off, they reproduce, follow, or ignore", in fact the scene is most of the time based on friendship, fun and that's definitively why I joined it.

"And why the f... am I really wasting my time with such idiocy?"

Because you try to compete with me? Or you love to convince others you are right. Well we have something in our behaviour which is common...

"I know it's bad style to turn people's metaphors against themselves, but honestly - If there was no competition, you would NEVER see any football team win, let alone play because there'd be nobody to play against, as everyone would be in your team - a team consisting of 100000 people because there was no selection taking place, for that would've been people better than others"

You know what?

I hate and never watch any sports at television and I do sports myself. I will leave you some time now, I have to make body building. And then follow my Full Contact course...

I'm back.

Yes, I'm rather doing sports than watching them. The same goes for demomaking, or more generally programming versus using a computer: this is more fun doing than judging because in fact watching demos is boring at least when you get tons of stuff and are watching without understanding is simply consumption and has no meaning, this is idleness and making something (even if it's an article) is better than just to watch.

But I see your point, you said in fact that if everybody is following you and don't play against you, nothing will be released. Yes, I've written PLAY and not FIGHT, that's important.

I'm OK with this point. In fact I've badly expressed myself in STS: In reality my message is: don't judge but love, don't evaluate, make, don't consume, produce, well don't be idle, be active. And so I ask pouet posters not to post so much but instead write articles as a diskmag needs some to be alive. And if you think "this EP isn't a real scener and Hugi is a bad mag because non real sceners are writing articles for it", then you, yes, you, real sceners, take a moment, sit down, find an article idea and write one. "No time?", hey please don't release 30 demos/intros/4Kb/... per year, release 20 and make a good article, from time to time, it's as simple as that. No, please don't release 29 articles and only one demo!!! Yes, release fewer demos, there are too many.

No time? Send links, send anims showing you making stuff (code, ziks, pics), well, show the production of a demo.

"All men are created equal, but after this creation they are NOT.
And well, those aware of this simple fact love to find out in which ways they're not equal.
Those who are too weak to participate in this game, of course, start whining how unfair this all is and how everyone (read: they) would profit from embracing losers.
Yeah, RIGHT."

The first proposition is false: in this world there are poor people and so even when children haven't been born yet, they are weakier (bad health of the mother's) than others. Some are even ill in their mother's belly while others aren't. What is true is that we aren't equal but in fact we are complementary. Everybody has got something others haven't: knowledge, beauty, intelligence( s), skills, strength, sharpness, accuracy,...
Who profits from losers/lamers? Me and Adok?
Let me be clear: all the time I was in the scene, there were a few people creating, they were in fact the leaders, the makers, and a lot of others were watching and criticizing. But everything is a question of definition: what's a scener?

A guy who watches demos?

A guy who participates in the creation of a demo?

Thousands of guys know how to download and run a demo. Of course they aren't sceners, but they participate in the scene: in fact they act to extend the scene phenomenon and popularity, this is like football supporters and AFAIK supporters are a good moral support for active footballers as they motivate them. So even these big lamers who don't understand anything about the how and the why of a demo have a power over the demomakers. And as a matter of fact these lamers together often have more power than you can imagine over real sceners aka demomakers: they make them popular or unpopular and so they make sceners respected or hated, popular or unknown. Everybody has its part in the game.

If you make a video game, you will see that customers have a power because they force game makers to follow a fashion (like Doom, Quake,...: the brute force to the max, the brute force which sells well, brute force is easier to understand than shrewd spirits and reasonings, see football, tennis,...). Hopefully in demomaking, demomakers have more education than "average" people especially in the technical and mathematical / physical fields.

PIRACY=CANCER:

"There's one thing I wonder about..
Even though I like to give my opinion on what I've seen happening to Hugi the past few years I am *not* giving it another chance.
You guys should do that too.
Just ditch it if you know it ain't good from the start and completely ignore it instead of bitching, since it's obviously not getting the magazine any further under the stern leadership of Adok (a man seemingly fitted with enough arrogance to rank in the 'intellectual adonis' category); there's no reasoning with this type of people when it comes to modification of their concept(s).
Even if the rest of the world thinks it's for the better."

If you read carefully what I have written in this answer you will see that I have changed my concepts so... I think Adok isn't arrogant, he makes a mag, he loves that, and yes press as it's static can't really communicate the absolute truth and you know what, nobody can. Just see this picture and you will understand:

Adok: "Q: What do Jacques Chirac and dipswitch have in common?
A: Both of them are selfimportant pygmies!"

meCh\\bps:

"Last words from me.
It does not need any comment, but i will bother writing something for braindeads.
There is a freedom of speach, but as you know not _every_ speach is acceptable, even in democratic world as you describe it.
The words of 'selfimportant pygmy' are so called insults and may be treaten as misdemeanor."

Well Adok is wrong there: Pygmies are very clever and have often a small size, both conditions which aren't verified by JC! About DP?

I don't know him so I will not judge him, but I can say at least he has a big mouth. meCh\\bps is right, this kind of calling is a insult and must not be used to talk and argue.

eSKiMOkUNiNGAS!:

"if we read old hugis there is text by some unknown "sceners" who claim scene is dead and blablabla, its always being same. now its just so boring that it hurts, and EP articles sucks ass..."

Well, please give me the issue numbers and please remember I haven't said the scene is dead: I have said "how to save the scene", when something is dead then we can do nothing, it's too late! But why saving something which is in top health?

Well, the scene is changing, people who had time to participate no longer have the same amount of time now: real life with work constraints, girls, children, family, sports,... All of these take time and so old sceners stop their activities. And some are like Chaos and appear again. But it could be great to include chinese and indians into the scene as they surely have interesting artistic and technical skills and this can really improve the scene experience.

xeNusion:

"wow... what has tv in common with the demoscene?"

Well TV is like Demos: an entertaining audiovisual way to spend spare time. But yes, demos have something more: they features technically interesting stuff on screen at least for those who understand them. I've been to parties and I know a lot of musicians and graphic designers don't know anything about code techniques used in demos but love them nevertheless. So please, coders, put on the screen or into readmes some information about all the effects used in demos so we can 1) name them, and so identify them, 2) explain in a few words in what they consist of. You know art is better understood and appreciated when we have the theory to understand it. Coders generally are also a bit aware of philosophy, so why not introducing us to a message hidden in your demo?

This could really improve the whole scene and yes I really love Konsum by FB and other demos with philosophical/ funny sentences like the Andromeda sequencial end scroll. This adds a human touch to the scene: Demomakers don't only make demos. They also think, have an internal life. AND SHOW US ANOTHER JEWEL: THEIR THOUGHTS.

"are you stupid enough to think that your beloved mtv will start playing demos coz they can find them as avi on the net?

you "anim" theory is totally idiotic and against the main principles of the whole demo scene."

Well, of course MTV will not display demos on screen or perhaps in a techno music clip. MTV is about music and not about demomaking so... Anims are the fastest way to get something to run on most platforms but there are also others solutions: make an API which allows to code a demo and then automatically make several exe files for every platform on this earth, but for now I don't know this API. There's OpenGL, but it's not as general as needed. I also understand your reaction: Anims kill the demo soul, the code behind. Sorry, this is a problem, I know that. Anim is the solution for total visibility of demos for a broad range of totally incompatible computers. This is a way to share more and to reunite the scenes. I'm neither against .exe nor .avi generation.

I'VE NEVER BEEN FOR THE STOP OF THE .EXE DEMOS!
REREAD STS PLEASE!

"how will you explain that your 64k intro was really 64k if it was released as 100mb avi file?"

I see there that for a lot of sceners, the size of the .exe is interesting. If the size is small, does that mean the demo is great?

I remember a very good demo (IMHO) called Odyssey by Alcatraz which was 6 disks sized on the Amiga 500, lots of years ago. This demo is a real piece of artwork. It features a scenario, a lots of code, a lot of effects, a lot of 2D pictures, and a lot of music. So size when not as big as 10 MB is not as important as you said. Well of course it's really interesting that in a small 4K Armada and Traumacoders have made a so good San Angeles Observation and what to say about this micropolis by TBC + Mainloop?

Pure pieces of joy (except for the robot with weapons, at least for me): yes it's black and white shaded, the robot is moving so sensually, the music is good, and yes, it's 4K. Some guys are not coders but gods... The size is interesting but reduces possibilities for other guys in the scene but coders. The game is to put as much code as possible and so size is what puts everything on the shoulders of the coder. If they agree for such burden that's OK after all.

"and who will pay the transfer costs if every little downloads needs at least 80mb of transfer?

i guess no one and scene.org will soon close down and what about the people who dont have a fast line like you have..

they will soon leave the scene coz all the releases arent downloadable for them."

OK! And anims formats are too bad nowadays to get something good on screen, the original smoothness is lost at least for now.

"that guys are boozing too much and that is true as photos show it another one of your theorys.

which motif for a photo is far more interesting...

a puking bronix or someone typing at his keyboard?"

Don't put the main "problem" out please! Alcohol is a way to reduce the stress but it features risks for boozers and others. Photographers can make a photo of everything they want of course and with a digital camera we can get photos of everything at the parties. And yes, there is more interesting stuff to show: for example nice girls, pictures compo on the big screen, the whole scene place, with all the tables and the guys coming here and there, the whole buffet, some sceners as groups with their pseudo and their name and function, some pictures of the city where the party takes place, showing that at this party people were happy,... In 72 hours there are so many opportunities to make photos with a digital camera that we can see something else than boozed guys, isn't it?

"partys are a place to meet, get drunk (for some people) and to show demos.
and ususally its over after 3 days so taking some photos as example to build up such obscure theorys is idiotic."

Here I see one thing interesting: how many sceners get drunk? An average number could be great to know. I have written STS after seeing several articles about boozers, there were boozed photos in them, but nowhere numbers, so how many sceners are "alcoholics "? Or take so much drinks they have been out of order at the party? If out of 600 sceners there are 5 to 10 drinkers, this is a minor phenomenon, but if there are more than 5%,then we can ask ourselves some questions, like why they drink so much, what they have? And why are parties so boring that sceners need to get drunk to spend their time there? Well, organisers, why not let them visit the city around the party place, enjoying the local culture: food, monuments, girls,...? So they will not get back home, thinking: this party was good, I was drunk all the time, what a good time, I can have the same in my room at home.

Anxiety is a disease and can be fought using other ways. At parties I were, there were a lot of activities and there was no time for stress and I'm a really anxious guy, believe me.

And dark is for me (for you too, not?) the color of death and death is not creativity, death is the end of all activity.

"omg another theory...

well i can play this game as well: the roman empire -> death culture and as their culture died its just logical that their low level of art must be the reason for it.
im sure if you would keep writing such articles you will come up with similar stuff."

We must put things back in their context. I have written STS during the cold winter 2003, I was reading several diskmags and saw that the alcohol point was evident, and as I considered sceners my friends I didn't want the same things which have happened to my friend happen to them. If when somebody tries to help you, you give him a "fuck" or a blow? You will meet some problems in your life, believe me.

Well, so after reading these mags, I saw some bad demos, read some not so enthusiastic scrollers, saw so dark demos and in fact so mathematics oriented ones, and was hurted by some. I then wondered how I could change something. Please also remember that the computer I had that time was slow and demos were jerky on that PC. So I wrote the STS article, then sent it to some diskmags as it was important for me that the scene wouldn't die. I'm a dreamer, a lunatic and so it's important for me that demos are good and for other people too: if a dream becomes a nightmare, what is the life worth for?

And so... So having a dark dream with boozers pictures isn't a way to get a good sleeping time, well that's my point.

When Albert Einstein discovered the theory of relativity he was considered a fool simply because only 10 or 30 guys on the world where able to understand him.

"another thesis?

bad people moaning about ep´s article = stupid people who dont understand einsteins theory.

-> therefore EP = Einstein"

Ho! What a mistake! Why are there so many spirits in the scene and in the world who are so closed?

For you, we are with or against you, that's the problem.
And if somebody is neutral, what will you do?

You kill him, because this allows you to think: "I will have no problem with him any more, just in case",..
And if somebody is just a bit against you, what will you do?

And if he is just a bit with you?

And if for 5 minutes he is bad with you, then he comes back to be good?

Where have I written "people don't understand me, so they are stupid!", except just before these 5 words? Nowhere, and I haven't thought of it. There is something you should learn and that is DIFFERENCE. I have made mistakes in STS, I will change using this experience, hope you will too. I see you made wrong inferences about my writings. But this is a problem with human language, it's not perfect and everybody can interpret one and the same sentence in different ways. So we then coined several other languages: logics like we use in imperative languages like ASM, C, Pascal, or mathematics, with algebra, geometry, arithmetics, some have even coined more artistic languages like music, or visual arts, like painting, and in fact most of the human activitities are language oriented (cinema, theater, even sport is a language). Last I see you think I take myself for being Einstein, but Einstein is dead and I'm alive. Einstein was one of the cleverest spirits of his time, and I have quoted this anectdote just to show that misunderstandings are common when a long theory is explained.

"Quote: 'Yes intelligence isn't well shared.'

yeah regarding some unofficial hugi informations you and adok got 51% intelligence of the whole humanship so unfortunatly there isnt much left for us normal people to share..."

So finally it's confirmed?

Sorry, so you are stupid... Ha, this are unofficial information, so perhaps there was a mistake, you have a chance... Here I use irony and I hope when I use it here and there you are clever enough to understand that I'm doing so. I hope also you understand humour (EP's one) and when I write something not to be taken literally. In case you think something is hurting, ask what this sentence is supposed to mean. You will see often people don't understand them as they haven't taken the time to speak and find out exactly what the other person has really thought.

"Quote: 'Finally I see that in fact I have said something near the truth as you are reacting because you have been touched by my words and ideas.'

lol.
yeah the ominous adok theory...

if everyone is against you - you must be right.

dude get down from your throne."

When something concerning me is false and has no effect on myself, I ignore it to waste no time. But see how STS is written:

We see that STS is neither totally false, nor totally true, it's qualified and we also see that it's reduced as my point of view is not necessarily representing the absolute truth, I'm not omniscient. STS Pouet Posts field is embracing more stuff about the scene, and the whole scene field is and will be absolutely impossible to surround as it continuously increases. Ha, yeah, notice also that the size of the STS field is zoomed by 1000% to see the grid and its content categories.

"well your whole article (and your posting here) clearly shows the real problem of the scene: to much arrogant nerds without a clue who just lurk around and dont get creative."

That's your point and if only arrogant people write articles then real sceners will never be happy about diskmags and they will be responsible for this. So please, take some time, write some articles and show us your point of view. For example when we see a party report done only by one guy, we cannot get an acurate idea of this party: two eyes don't see as well or the same things as let's say ten. Please don't let "lamers" (ie EP?) say absolutely not the truth about the scene, express yourself and after that we will get more and more interesting articles. But well believe me, writing interesting articles is hard and reading a party report isn't the same as being at a real party. So please write good articles about gfx/music effects in the fashion, about programming concepts,... And stop fighting for nothing important: WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS WHAT YOU PUT EMPHASIS ON.

Ronny:

"just in case you didn't notice, the scene doesn't need to be saved.
your article is simply redundant.

sincerly, ronny"

I did notice that, but my article was written in a time when I thought differently. Of course I wasn't aware of the fact that Hugi was read by so many sceners, and the fact that I've got so many answers on a totally lame article is good: I'm less anxious and now know that the scene is well alive. The article wasn't redundant: it showed that sceners are alive and have something to say, this helps ease communication as people who were angry have found there on the pouet post a way to express themselves, which is absolutely good for their health, so I have succedeed one more time in unstressing all these "alcoholic" sceners without a glass.

rainmaker / mfx:

"Quote: 'TRY TO BE FUNNY, TECHNICAL STULL ISN'T ENJOYED BY THE MASSES'

I.. cannot find the words to describe my feelings right now.
Really."

uncle-x/mfx:

"I just realized that the article by EP is the opinion of a common man (a.k.a. idiot) who doesn't know anything about the demoscene, and the article describes very closely how to win the assembly democompo!

Everyone, lets make storydemos that are funny!

You ain't got none?

well, stfu.

i have now seen into the heart of stupidity.
EP is there."

Well, of course if you see demos as technical demonstrations only then I understand you're angry but just watch here and there and you will see that demos are of very different types. Funny demos are something great IMHO, and yes, I love melon demos very much, I also love one thing and this is when there is some human touch in demos meaning when there is some communication, when there is rhythm in the sequence of effects, well I love Amiga demos of the 90 - 95 years and some AGA ones too like those of these groups
Virtual dreams,
Mystic,
TRSI,
Oxygene,
Psykotrope,
Digital, and lots of others...

I also love those demos from the PC with a story or not like:

IX by Moppi Productions,
I feel like a computer by Melon Dezign,
The LifeWay 1.0 by Spöntz,
fr-025: the.popular.demo by Farbrausch,
Relais by Kolor,
Protozoa by Kewlers,
Your Fingers So Gently... by Plastic,
Saturday Night Scener by Conspiracy,
TG04 invitation by Excess,
Arise by Stravaganza,
Come Clean by Fairlight,
Micropolis by TBC &emp; Mainloop,
Boost by Doomsday,
Recycled by Byterapers inc. &emp; Doomsday,
Just a touch of funk by Digital Murder,
Obe by Virtual Dreams/Fairlight/Sumea Labs,
fr-08: the product by Farbrausch,
fr-05: konsum by Farbrausch,
Le Petit Prince by Kolor,
Time Machine by Lettique,
The Grid by Lithe / lewd / leyman,
Bleam by Lionhead (Statix &emp; Vic),
Micropolis by TBC &emp; Mainloop,
Live Evil by Mandula,
Tribes by Melon &emp; Pulse,
Goatard by Noice,
Sunflower by Pulse,
Adrenalin by Smash Designs,
aN ewGene by Spinning Kids,
The S by Suspend,
Shad 2 by Cocoon &emp; Syndrome,

and others I can't quote due to lack of time and space.

I also love some old stuff coming from the Amiga (I owned an A1200 and before an A500 so I talk about real demos and not those being seen with an emulator as with a PC CRT monitor the emulated display is not as good as on the real machine and you don't get the same feeling as this isn't the original hardware which runs the original software):

roots 2.0 by sanity,
extension by pygmy projects,
3d demo by anarchy,
humantarget by melon dezign,
absolute inebriation by virtual dreams / fairlight,
sequential by andromeda,
wicked sensation by trsi,
guardian dragon 2 by kefrens,
in the kitchen by anarchy,
clairvoyance by absolute,
interference by sanity,
megademo 2 by Rebels,
introduction to seduction by Rebels,
how 2 skin a cat by melon dezign,
ray of hope 2 by majic 12,
decaying paradise by andromeda,
lethal exit by digital,
krest mass leftovers by anarchy,
follow me (1990) by red sector inc.,
tag 1 by jet set :: skid row,
technological death by mad elks,
lost in legoland by andromeda,
blittermagic by brainstorm,
romantic demo by melon design,
outland by freezers,
guardian dragon by kefrens,
prism vectors by surprise! productions :: trsi,
wit by freezers,
fruit kitchen by silents,
virtual world by tomsoft,
easy ruling by silents :: northstar,
notech by bass :: drifters,
voyage by razor 1911,
we shave ass by razor 1911,
world of commodore by sanity,
elysium by sanity,
arte by sanity,

and a lot of others: on the Amiga there were so many good demos, I really cannot quote all.

On the ST (I owned one before the Amiga a 520 STE + 1MB RAM):

Overdrive by Phalanx: the first STF demo I saw in 1992, a total brain improvement, I was amazed how these guys were able to do that while game coders weren't able to do almost anything good on the ST (except Thalion software and Eclipse of course).

Vodka by Equinox,
Whattaheck Demo by TCB,
Cuddly Demos by TCB,
syntax terror by delta force ,
punish your machine by delta force ,
anomaly demo by mjj prod,
ultimate gfa demo by overlanders,
ooh crickey wot a scorcher by the lost boys
Life Is A Bitch by The Lost Boys & The Exceptions (TEX)
humeur vitrée by hemoroids
Decade Demo by Inner Circle
THE UNION-DEMO by THE UNION
dark side of the spoon by ulm

Sorry, I don't know any C64 demos.

I have neither quoted musicdisks nor slideshows but a lot of them are excellent, too.

You said I don't know the scene?
See these prods.

Scene isn't only prods?

You're right, so read my other articles please. The lists are long as demos are varied and I love that. These lists only represent my own preferences and please note I haven't seen all the demos on the pouet directory and will never see them (not enough time)... Well I advise you to run these Amiga and ST demos as they represent a varied sample of the 16/32 bits scene: they represent in fact the image I have of the old scene, the oldskool. These demos are something like the roots of nowadays demos. you can download them direcly by clicking on their names. The PC links show what is for me "the creme of the creme of the nowadays PC scene" since 2003/4. And if you know other good demos please send me links.

The ST scene is more code based whereas Amiga Scene is more design based. Both scenes have melted (Amiga and ST sceners were mostly against PC at its beginning but with the 386 everything was about the MHz race and Intel won this battle and killed other home computers except the macintosh so sceners on 16/32 bits machines left them for PC coding) into the PC scene and if there are a lot of sceners angry at for example some Assembly party winners then the problem is here: there are two scenes, the first, like the ST scene, is more technically impressive and code based than the second like the Amiga scene. When a huge amount of guys watches a demo and doesn't have the technical background to evaluate what they watch, then all the time the best designed demo wins (ie: state of the art by SpaceBalls, legomania by doomsday,...) as we are conditioned by television, the media and traditions to prefer nice (and useless) things over "ugly", more technical and more useful things. We are conditioned by the media to prefer the form over the content.

In fact everybody is able to instantaneously get good feelings about beautiful things whereas something technically interesting needs an education which requires time and effort to get.

So why not cutting the demos/intros/4K compos into two categories: code oriented / design oriented?

Then people will not flame a winner for its lame code (despite its beautiful design) as it will not compete with code oriented demos only. Ha?

Good, bad design is a matter of taste, so it's subjective, but well, there are juries at parties and the team that submits its demo can give a note to the jury, to ask them "I would compete in design / coding only compo". If the jury denies the request, then the demo, if selected, will automatically be put in the other category compo, or not be presented at the choice of the demo team so the team can keep their stuff secret to release it at another place.

Continue...